tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5021346565171482910.post1224601237851291146..comments2023-05-26T10:55:27.696-04:00Comments on Jc_Freak: Is Romans 8:29-30 an Ordo Salutis?Jc_Freak:http://www.blogger.com/profile/14780031497091443526noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5021346565171482910.post-54420694858142095402009-03-16T21:10:00.000-04:002009-03-16T21:10:00.000-04:00TJ,I absolutely agree with you that characterizati...TJ,<BR/><BR/>I absolutely agree with you that characterizations benefit no-one. They only serve to distract from the conversation at hand. Indeed the comment which was deleted above was deleted for is mis-characterization of Calvinism. If you ever see me doing that, let me know.<BR/><BR/>Apart from that, I have heard the "fore-love" argument before. A couple of things on that. First, it is not the traditional Calvinist argument. It is relatively recent, as far as I can tell, and I think it was primarily developed to combat Arminianism.<BR/><BR/>Second, the argument is not on what the word means, but based upon a possible Hebrew colloquialism. "proegno" (the aorist 3rd person singular of "proginosko" primarily means "fore-know". Another other translation, though possibly suggested, cannot be insisted upon. That doesn't make it wrong, but it is not a strong case.<BR/><BR/>Third, I find the point rather moot. Either fore-knew or fore-loved can work in Arminian and Calvinist theologies. Personally, I don't believe it would mean that God fore-knew that we accepted Jesus Christ, but that He fore-knew us personally as children of God. I believe this is what most Calvinists mean by "fore-loved", though I do think that fore-knew is better. Additionally, seeing how God knows what He preordains in Calvinism, translating it as fore-knew does no real damage to Calvinism. Again, I see it as moot.<BR/><BR/>Your thoughts?Jc_Freak:https://www.blogger.com/profile/14780031497091443526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5021346565171482910.post-85255775028447584952009-03-16T11:41:00.000-04:002009-03-16T11:41:00.000-04:00I know this is an old post but I happened upon it ...I know this is an old post but I happened upon it and wanted to share a few thoughts. Let me first say that while Calvinists and Arminians will always disagree (I'm a Calvinist by the way), it's certainly not helpful to characterize each other in derogatory ways or to misrepresent each other's views. I know Calvinists are guilty of this often, and as a former Arminian who is now a Calvinist I hope to avoid this.<BR/><BR/>First I want to quickly comment to beowulf that no good Calvinist would ever say God rolled any dice. God sovereignly chose who he wanted to choose. It wasn't random, it was God's will.<BR/><BR/>That being said, the issue related to this passage is a very basic disagreement over the meaning of the word "foreknew." Arminians take that to mean that God fore-saw what we would choose and therefore elected those who would choose him. Calvinists believe that word means God "knew" us closer to the sense that Adam "knew" Eve. That is God fore-loved us and therefore chose those he loved, and enabled them to respond in faith. I think if we really want to come to any agreement or better understanding of the passage we have to look at what this word really means.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02183251830573099574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5021346565171482910.post-7622926976811616782008-10-24T15:25:00.000-04:002008-10-24T15:25:00.000-04:00"There are some who insist that Romans 8:29-30 rep..."There are some who insist that Romans 8:29-30 represents a Calvinist ordo salutis."<BR/><BR/>They must be high on crack. Romans 8:29-30 clearly represents the Arminian ordo salutis:<BR/><BR/>1. We were foreknown by God<BR/>2. We were predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son<BR/>3. We were called<BR/>4. We were justified<BR/>5. We were glorified<BR/><BR/>The Calvinist ordo salutis goes like this:<BR/><BR/>1. God rolled the dice and we got an even number<BR/>2. We were predestined to be given faith<BR/>3. We were predestined to sin obstinately and certainly be the opposite of conformed to the image of the Son<BR/>4. We were called<BR/>5. We were justified<BR/>6. We were glorifiedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5021346565171482910.post-79945321592059631812008-10-24T15:24:00.000-04:002008-10-24T15:24:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com